One of the greatest developments of the next 50 years, I believe, will be an acknowledgement on the part of the majority of the world's scientists and intellectual leaders that science and religion are "the two most potent forces of human life", and that when one penetrates through their great diversity of doctrine and custom, all religions, at their heart, are equally valid expressions of the sacred and the Divine.
Randal Leavitt
| Re: Science & Religion
Posted: 18-Nov-2006 05:17  in response to: Robert Sarracino | |
Nope - if we want to have any chance of living on this planet in any form of comfort then we have to totally get rid of unfounded belief in make-believe gods. If we don't do this we face a never ending nightmare of warfare as gangs of god following hooligans try to kill each other and their rival gods off. We will live as the Vikings did, following Oden and the Raven into glorious battle day after day after day. Show me a god that can put a loaf of bread on my table every time I snap my fingers and I may change my opinion. Until we have evidence of gods that can do anything at all we have to cut ourselves free of the paranoid insanity which we call "divine". Every time I snap my fingers nothing happens, and as long as that continues I will treat discussions of the divine as attempts to get me to join an army. No thanks. As far as I can see the word "divine" promotes a scam. We have to break free from this trap. |
Posts: 2
From: Auckland
Registered: 19/11/06
| Re: Science & Religion
Posted: 19-Nov-2006 02:56 in response to: Robert Sarracino | |
no you are wrong - religion is about insecurity and science is about the way forward. religion is faith - science is fact. faith multiplied by faith equals war. fact multiplied by fact equals positive outcome. going forward is about losing sun worship and sacrifice which is basicley what all religion is about.
Posts: 4
From: England
Registered: 19/11/06
| Re: Science & Religion
Posted: 19-Nov-2006 14:09 in response to: greggles | |
Religious and scientific thinking from a human language perspective are all about stories- we believe one story while they believe another, the stories of our tribe separate 'us' from 'them'.
As a science fan I have a burning passion for the scientific ideal and faith in those who persue the truth; I suppose it could be called religious, after all, it is only a particular form of idea which i subscribe to. Understanding is only a feeling like faith, and understanding an idea (no matter how true) is not true knowledge its self, it is an abstraction to fit the truth into our tiny minds.
I hope in the future, science can form the basis of a new religion, a kind of pantheistic love of the universe, the persuit of truth and knowledge, and celebration of it through education and the (subjective, religious, human) feeling of understanding. |
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Posts: 1
Registered: 19/11/06
| Re: Science & Religion
Posted: 19-Nov-2006 19:44 in response to: Robert Sarracino |
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This is all pretty straightforward really, isn't it? It's not possible for those who believe to prove that there is a god and scientists can't prove that there isn't. The intelligent designers are digging an amazingly deep hole for themselves because they appear to be too dim to recognise this fact.
I can't imagine a situation - whether it's within the next 50 or 5000 years - in which people will stop wanting to believe in the irrational, whether its Father Christmas, UFOs, fairies at the bottom of the garden or gods. People are just like that - they want to believe stuff that gives meaning to their lives, whether or not it has any basis in fact.
Science and religion cannot be reconciled (see my second sentence) and they therefore never will be. It's also worth noting that most religious people aren't fundamentalists - many of them do genuinely good work. A country like Tanzania, which I know quite well, would have virtually nothing in the way of effective healthcare if it wasn't for religious organisations.
People will want to belive in things that give meaning to their lives. To imagine that they won't is like imagining that somehow, through the force of rational argument and logic, we'll prevent people from killing each other and waging wars. Religion is just a fact of life - on the whole I don't like it, but I think I understand it and we're stuck with it.
Well, that's what I think anyway!
trembleclef
| Re: Science & Religion
Posted: 19-Nov-2006 22:18 in response to: jerry_cornelius |
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What if science led to more people finding meaning in their lives than religion does? There's got to be a tipping point where the collective legacy of scientific study and rationality over time uncovers plain truths which undermine any lingering value in blind religious faith - and at the same time add context and meaning to our lives. After all, we're here after a long process of evolution. Increasing understanding of the forces that drive it should lead to a greater humanistic sense of purpose. |
don secomb
| Re: Science & Religion
Posted: 20-Nov-2006 02:44 in response to: trembleclef | |
As a teenager doing a college landscaping course I was told "Never put a garden where people want to walk and a path where no one wants to go."
In other words we ignore fundamental human psychology at our peril.
The anthropologist Joseph Campbell in his book "A Myth to Live By" elegantly shows that for a large part of the population the prospect of the philosophy of science replacing or displacing religion is too bleak and austere for general acceptance. Any belief that this is possible is itself hopelessly naive. |
Robert Kramarz
| Re: Science & Religion
Posted: 21-Nov-2006 07:27 in response to: Robert Sarracino | |
More optimistic than many, I see the emergence of a new world view whose primary values are creativity and discovery (two sides of the same coin.) This way of thought will replace traditional religion whose primary values are faith and self-sacrifice. All knowledge will be viewed as "provisional" rather than absolute, leaving open the possibility of continuous improvements to our knowledgebase and humility. War has no place inside this context.
You may follow the development of this system of thought at www.intelliversity.com.
What do you think? |
Posts: 4
From: UK
Registered: 21/11/06
| Re: Science & Religion
Posted: 21-Nov-2006 15:24 in response to: Robert Kramarz | |
The sooner everybody gets used to the idea that we are in all probability the product of a freak chemical reaction, either here or elsewhere, the better off we will be. Just enjoy the ride! |
Geoff D
| Re: Science & Religion
Posted: 22-Nov-2006 02:23 in response to: Robert Sarracino | |
I think we look at the 'faith' vs. 'fact' argument in a fairly absolute manner; and if there is anything we should know about the universe now is that nothing is absolute. To me science and faith are not two forces diametrically opposed; but rather two faces of the same coin. Where one side ends, the other begins.
Sure, religion has been used over time as an excuse for war; but the pretext of such an excuse is almost primarily a land dispute or the issue of political leadership and not necessarily a difference in opinion of faith (apart from a few minor cases).
There will always be a need for religion, just as there is science to describe the physical universe around us and bind us together in thought; religion can help us comprehend the unknowable, those corners of the universe that science will never be able to touch, this too will bind us together in times of weakness so that we may have hope for an uncertain future.
Take for example the extreme case of cosmology. When it comes to the origins of the universe we don't know, and chances are we will never know. Alot of what is done and said in cosmology and the theory of the existence of the universe is philosophy cleverly disguised with mathematics (and some really interesting stuff at that). On that note, there is a massive void in philosophy, ethics, emotion and human creativity that is left in science, and although it may not be completely apparent religion has a history grounded in all of these things. I am not talking about literal views and somewhat backward beliefs, but religion that is somewhat compatible with science as a whole. One where we can keep the spirituality, faith in the unknowable and our sense of humanity; yet still challenge the unknown with keen intellect.
As such, I feel there is purpose and meaning in both science and religion; to discount one because of the other is absurd. In kind to assume that both are incompatible based on extreme cases is also absurd. Furthermore if we are merely going on the merits on each; science has given me knowledge, and a deeper understanding of how the physical universe works through studies in physics... yet one of the things science hasn't typically given me is a sense of community and even in some cases, humanity. So when it comes down to the tired 'religion' vs. 'science' argument, I often ask myself: "Is it really worth throwing it away?"
to finish; here is a quote that you may find interesting:
Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.
- Albert Einstein, "Science, Philosophy and Religion: a Symposium", 1941 |
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